Husky wont 'Come'

[Arooroomom]

I've trained recall with all of mine, it's so important because these dogs are stinkers and slipping collars happens so often with them. Regardless if the breed is good off lead or not every dog should be taught a recall. Our emergency recall has saved mine a few times. I've even been able to call off ALL 3when they took off out of my pickup truck bed and went to chase a bunch of ducks. They came right back the moment I saw them make that jump and gave the emergency recall. They were heavily rewarded

[Macdog]

"live to serve themselves"

Thank you for that, Kells.

Best description of a Sibe I'v ever heard. :-)

[raindog]

Totally agree! My opinion is that if more people tried recall as they would with any other breed, then they would find that alot of their dogs ARE actually capable of it. Rather than being lazy and saying " you can't let these dogs off the lead" don't get me wrong I'm fully aware that this is not the case for everyone, however I think people do give upthe recall training far to easily!

I agree to a certain extent and all ours are trained to recall. Having said that, despite the training, I know both from my own experience (and the accumulated experience of hundreds of thousands of sibe owners worldwide), that their recall can never be 100%. It is Sod's Law that the very occasion that you need it to be 100% it won't be. My dogs are much too precious for me ever to take the risk of letting them offlead in an unenclosed area no matter how good their recall appears to be most of the time.

Every single Siberian Husky related organisation IN THE WORLD recommends that these dogs not be let off lead in unenclosed areas. They are not doing this for fun, or to annoy would be training experts. They are basing it on cold, hard, bitter experience - nothing more, nothing less.

Mick

[Timbaboy]

I agree to a certain extent and all ours are trained to recall. Having said that, despite the training, I know both from my own experience (and the accumulated experience of hundreds of thousands of sibe owners worldwide), that their recall can never be 100%. It is Sod's Law that the very occasion that you need it to be 100% it won't be. My dogs are much too precious for me ever to take the risk of letting them offlead in an unenclosed area no matter how good their recall appears to be most of the time.

Every single Siberian Husky related organisation IN THE WORLD recommends that these dogs not be let off lead in unenclosed areas. They are not doing this for fun, or to annoy would be training experts. They are basing it on cold, hard, bitter experience - nothing more, nothing less.

Mick

Yeh agree again Mick,

I just think every husky owner or owner of any breed

should try their hardest to train recall where it is safe

to do so, as many know it can come in very handy.

Also what I was trying to say above is that I believe

some husky owners don't even think about recall as

the breed simply cannot learn it!

Thanks Ben

[Bec]

Also what I was trying to say above is that I believe

some husky owners don't even think about recall as

the breed simply cannot learn it!

Agreed

[raindog]

Yeh agree again Mick,

I just think every husky owner or owner of any breed

should try their hardest to train recall where it is safe

to do so, as many know it can come in very handy.

Also what I was trying to say above is that I believe

some husky owners don't even think about recall as

the breed simply cannot learn it!

Thanks Ben

I agree completely. I just think that we need to be careful how we present it so that we don't give the impression that huskies are no different from, say, Labradors and just need to be trained well to have 100% recall. Our oldest boy Ute is fantastically obedient - he'll do obedience, he'll walk to heel offlead etc etc. However, I know that under the veneer of good behaviour, he is a husky and that given the right stimulus, all the obedience training can be forgotten (or more realistically weighed in the balance and found to be wanting) instantaneously.

Mick

[Bec]

The way I train my dogs means that I can interrupt behaviour where they are highly aroused (chasing something, playing with another dog, running around, tracking a scent) and they will recall without even stopping to think about it. it's an automatic response.

I believe that any dog can be trained to have a reliable recall, regardless of breed. Whether that would be 100% depends on your definition of reliable, and what you consider 100%. In reality we can't test and proof every situation to know our dogs are 100% reliable. I can call my scent hound off mid-scent and she responds instantly, she will recall around very high levels of distraction (lots of food, people, other dogs, children, etc) to me that is a reliable recall. Would she do that 100% of the time? I don't know, because I can't test every single situation, but for the amount of proofing and training I've done I am confident enough to say she is very reliable.

The people I know who have put the effort into the right training system with their Siberian also have dogs who have VERY reliable recalls, I am talking dogs who will recall away from chasing ducks, playing with other dogs, will turn around mid sprint and come galloping back as soon as they are called. It's not a fluke, that's just how they have been trained. By the same token I've seen people with labradors who have crap recalls, who have the exact same issues as people in this thread have mentioned (good at home in the yard, terrible when there are other dogs around etc).

[Danielle-Ste]

Lol they'd be perfect if they werent so ignorant!

Ste let our shadow off on a walk, and he ran through gardens and was gone sarching for an hour, seriously thought we'd lost him!

Luckily, someone found him and took him to the vets. Never again will i trust him!!

Nishka isnt so bad, but shes a puppy at the moment, shes a bit more dependant on us than what shadow was.

Has anyone tried the buzz collars??

xxx

[Bec]

Lol they'd be perfect if they werent so ignorant!

Ste let our shadow off on a walk, and he ran through gardens and was gone sarching for an hour, seriously thought we'd lost him!

Luckily, someone found him and took him to the vets. Never again will i trust him!!

How much recall training did you do with him before letting him off that first time?

Nishka isnt so bad, but shes a puppy at the moment, shes a bit more dependant on us than what shadow was.

Has anyone tried the buzz collars??

E-collar training is certainly one way to proof an existing recall. But, to be used properly, you really need to learn from someone very experienced and you will find you will spend upwards of $500 to buy a good quality collar. They should not be used as a punishment but a subtle cue to get the dog's attention. They are a great tools in the right hand but you also need to spend time training a recall before using one to proof those final stages.

[raindog]

I believe that any dog can be trained to have a reliable recall, regardless of breed. Whether that would be 100% depends on your definition of reliable, and what you consider 100%. In reality we can't test and proof every situation to know our dogs are 100% reliable.

The people I know who have put the effort into the right training system with their Siberian also have dogs who have VERY reliable recalls, I am talking dogs who will recall away from chasing ducks, playing with other dogs, will turn around mid sprint and come galloping back as soon as they are called. It's not a fluke, that's just how they have been trained.

First of all, I don't believe that any dog can ever have 100% perfect recall, and more than anyone can always predict 100% the reaction of a human in any situation. I do believe however that Siberian Huskies, as a result of their history and their independent mindedness are not like "any dog."

Of course they can be trained to exhibit the semblance of "perfect recall" - most people looking at some of our older dogs (like Ute) would say that they had perfect recall - they haven't, of course, but they can fool you into thinking that they have.

The real problem here isn't a dog problem, it's a human problem. The moment someone starts saying that Huskies can be trained successfully to go off lead and have perfect recall, even though that statement is accompanied by endless caveats about the length, depth and intensity of the training process necessary, there will be totally inept and unqualified owners assuming that they can let their dog off lead with no negative consequences. As a result we get more and more strays, more and more dead dogs as a result of road accidents and more dogs shot as a result of livestock worrying.

Unfortunately Bec, not everyone has your commitment to and knowledge of training and it is no surprise that when you look at worldwide internet discussions about this topic, those who are most adamant about their dog's ability to go off lead safely are often those with the least knowledge, ability and aptitude for dog training.

Mick

[Bec]

First of all, I don't believe that any dog can ever have 100% perfect recall, and more than anyone can always predict 100% the reaction of a human in any situation. I do believe however that Siberian Huskies, as a result of their history and their independent mindedness are not like "any dog."

Of course they can be trained to exhibit the semblance of "perfect recall" - most people looking at some of our older dogs (like Ute) would say that they had perfect recall - they haven't, of course, but they can fool you into thinking that they have.

The real problem here isn't a dog problem, it's a human problem. The moment someone starts saying that Huskies can be trained successfully to go off lead and have perfect recall, even though that statement is accompanied by endless caveats about the length, depth and intensity of the training process necessary, there will be totally inept and unqualified owners assuming that they can let their dog off lead with no negative consequences. As a result we get more and more strays, more and more dead dogs as a result of road accidents and more dogs shot as a result of livestock worrying.

Unfortunately Bec, not everyone has your commitment to and knowledge of training and it is no surprise that when you look at worldwide internet discussions about this topic, those who are most adamant about their dog's ability to go off lead safely are often those with the least knowledge, ability and aptitude for dog training.

I'm not saying it's easy or that everyone can do it, but I DO believe that ANY dog can have a reliable recall - not saying that and meaning a perfect recall or a 100% reliable recall. And that's not saying that if your husky has a reliable recall, that you should let it off leash in unsafe areas. But, why not strive to have as reliable a recall as possible? I hear about so many dogs (not just huskies) that are let off leash with no or little recall training and then the owners, if they are lucky enough to get them back without incident, blame the dog for its lack of reliability and put training a recall in the too hard basket. Just because you will never trust them off leash - why take the risk that comes with having a dog who is not trained to recall at any level of reliability? I strongly believe that if more husky owners trained a reliable recall from the get go you would hear less stories about what happens to their dogs when they get off leash.

What if you take your dog to the fenced off leash area and someone leaves the gate open?

What if the dog jumps the fence?

What if someone leaves the gate open?

What if someone forgets to shut the front door properly?

What if your dog's leash or collar breaks?

These are ALL things that I've seen happen or have had happen to me. There is nothing like that moment of panic when your dog gets out, especially if it's a husky, and he runs straight down the street into oncoming traffic. Luckily for me when that happened I called out 'Micha, COME!' and he spun around and pelted right back to me. NEVER have I been so grateful for the fact I've trained my dogs to recall reliably. It takes the panic out of those situations and if more dog owners did it, we'd have hear less tragic stories about off leash dogs failing to recall and getting lost or hit by cars etc. Even if you dog is only 80 or 90% reliable - isn't 80 or 90% better than zero?

[Danielle-Ste]

Yeah his recall isnt perfect but hes listens in the house and has been to puppy classes.

He caught his attention on something when he first ran off !!

Some collars are about 50£ on ebay and other manufactuers do they not all work the same

[Bec]

Yeah his recall isnt perfect but hes listens in the house and has been to puppy classes.

He caught his attention on something when he first ran off !!

There's a big difference between listening in the house (a low distraction environment) and being off leash in a park (high level of distraction). Don't ask him to run before he can walk

Some collars are about 50£ on ebay and other manufactuers do they not all work the same

No definitely not. The cheap collars may work for the purpose they manufacturers say they will (i.e. giving the dog a reasonably strong to high level of correction for doing the wrong thing) but that's not how effective e-collar training should work. One problem with cheaper collars, is that it gives you very limited settings to work with. However, a more expensive collar like a Dogtra or Innotek can have more than 100 levels of stim, which means that you can work on levels of stim so low the dog can barely feel it. They become a method of communication not a correction. The more expensive collars can also work over great distances (i.e. 800m+) which cheaper collars cannot, and if you can't use the collar over big distances, it defeats the purpose of using one in the first place. E-collar training should not be able teaching a new command, but proofing an existing one.

[Macdog]

No definitely not. The cheap collars may work for the purpose they manufacturers say they will (i.e. giving the dog a reasonably strong to high level of correction for doing the wrong thing) but that's not how effective e-collar training should work. One problem with cheaper collars, is that it gives you very limited settings to work with. However, a more expensive collar like a Dogtra or Innotek can have more than 100 levels of stim, which means that you can work on levels of stim so low the dog can barely feel it. They become a method of communication not a correction. The more expensive collars can also work over great distances (i.e. 800m+) which cheaper collars cannot, and if you can't use the collar over big distances, it defeats the purpose of using one in the first place. E-collar training should not be able teaching a new command, but proofing an existing one.

I notice that Wales banned shock collars in March 2010 and that both the RSPCA and the Kennel Club supported the ban and have taken the position that shock collars have no place in dog training.

[madmally]

The problem with E collars is they can so easily be misused the trick is almost the same as clicker training but clicker training obviously focusing on positive reinforcement rather than negative stimulus. You have to be so precise with the timing that i personally would prefer something like clicker training or long line recall work. xx

[snssewell]

Zihna had a bad recall too. She would totally ignore me even in the back yard when I called her. I started working with a trainer and we used some really yummy yummy treats and it worked great. She even came to me when I called her at the dog park with other dogs there. After a few days it did not work so well anymore so I upgraded to some cream cheese and BAM!!! She came again....every time...lol...I think they just need the right motivation during training. See if you can find something that really makes him go: YUMMMMMM!!!!!!

Maybe some warmed up hot dogs, or some chicken lunch meat. Something really special that you will ONLY give him for the Come command.

[madmally]

Totally agree positive reinforcement can be so much more effective, ours go mad for tuna cake or hot dogs. xx

[Bec]

I notice that Wales banned shock collars in March 2010 and that both the RSPCA and the Kennel Club supported the ban and have taken the position that shock collars have no place in dog training.

Yes but the fact is that many people who use e-collars do not use them the way the RSPCA informs people they are used. The ban is born of misinformation and scare mongering, not hard evidence that proper use of the tool causes harm, pain or injury. I am yet to see a study on e-collar training that looks into the effects of the modern low stim training method that is used by many government and official training agencies world wide.

Totally agree positive reinforcement can be so much more effective, ours go mad for tuna cake or hot dogs. xx

There is no dispute that reward based training is the way to go, however, it is a common misconception that e-collar training is not used in conjunction with reward based methods or that it is used as punishment or with the intention to cause pain. An e-collar is only a tool, not the whole method, and if used properly, does not inflict pain on the dog, but simple acts as a very subtle cue to get the dog's attention.

Having said that, one of my dogs has been trained to a very high level of reliability with absolutely no physical corrections whatsoever, in fact most of our training is done off leash. However - if I wanted that little bit more reliability with her recall, and her recall is already highly reliable, I would need to use a remote training collar purely because it would be the most gentle, least aversive option especially when the dog is working 'remotely' from you (i.e. 50-100m+)

[Macdog]

Yes but the fact is that many people who use e-collars do not use them the way the RSPCA informs people they are used...

The fact remains that Wales banned shock collars. Moreover, not only is the RSPCA against them, the SPCA of the United States is as well. As is the SPCA of Ontario, where I live.

[KSNS]

all posts have coverd it realy so welcome to the site tip want a dog that comes back get another dog lmao not being nasty there so hope it dont seem that way just being sarcastic lol

you need to find some thing that taes his interest more than his surroundings but nothing is better to a husy than running and being free find an enclosd dog park an hold youre patients if you shout to get him back you wont get him back they know you wont catch them and it's why they will just run keep tone playful praise up on them eventualy comin back not angry or they will thin coming back will get them told off.

the rest has been coverd good luck

Oh and i do not agree with ecollars etc at all most of what can be done is from dogs personality good luck with the recall. most will not ever let their dogs off lead with good reason.

[Bec]

The fact remains that Wales banned shock collars. Moreover, not only is the RSPCA against them, the SPCA of the United States is as well. As is the SPCA of Ontario, where I live.

And yet in the majority of places world wide, they are perfectly legal, and used by many government agencies and training organisations.

Another fact... the RSPCA where I live was actually taken to federal court by an e-collar manufacturer to sue for defamation for false statements made by the RSPCA about e-collars. After two years of preparation and a two week hearing, the Court convicted the RSPCA of defamation and awarded the manufacturer damages. With two years to prepare their case and two weeks for the hearing, the RSPCA could present no evidence to show that harm could be caused from the correct use of an electronic collar. If anyone is interested they can read the Court’s Judgement at http://www.austlii.e...ery=orion%20pet

So not quite what I would consider a reputable nor ethical organisation, nor one that actually knows or understands what they are talking about when it comes to e-collars and how they are and should be used to the benefit of the animal... but that is getting off topic, let's get back to recall training

edited to add some extra info

[wasp]

Not that I have a lot to offer but I have one (remote collar),although I've only used it a handful of times. It has several settings and near its lowest it does an incredible job of just grabbing Skyy's attention when my voice does not. When I'm at the dog park and it's time to go its been very helpful. At times she can be at quite a distance and whistling or calling can be of little use. In this instance the very light stimulation (or even the beep, really, as she's associated that with the stimulation as the manufacturer intends) is a miracle in getting her attention. The beep or slight correction usually stops her from what she's doing and she begins looking for me as she knows if she comes she gets treated. This thread has been quite interesting to me as I've not previously heard of "emergency recall" and am very interested in starting that learning. Thanks Bec for your insight, you help some more than you know.

[Bec]

Not that I have a lot to offer but I have one (remote collar),although I've only used it a handful of times. It has several settings and near its lowest it does an incredible job of just grabbing Skyy's attention when my voice does not. When I'm at the dog park and it's time to go its been very helpful. At times she can be at quite a distance and whistling or calling can be of little use. In this instance the very light stimulation (or even the beep, really, as she's associated that with the stimulation as the manufacturer intends) is a miracle in getting her attention. The beep or slight correction usually stops her from what she's doing and she begins looking for me as she knows if she comes she gets treated. This thread has been quite interesting to me as I've not previously heard of "emergency recall" and am very interested in starting that learning. Thanks Bec for your insight, you help some more than you know.

That is definitely one big benefit of a remote training collar, it is a more subtle cue than we are capable of giving through voice and it's less than a leash correction but can work over far distances which is when people run into trouble with proofing. As you know, it's not a case of "shocking" the dog for failing to respond to a command, but giving it a subtle (not painful) cue to get their attention. Anyone who has put a modern e-collar on themselves will know it's not even remotely painful, and very different to the 'shock' collars of old which were used to blast dogs off stock they were chasing.

That is getting a bit off topic though

A big part of recall training is conditioning the dog the recall command. When you start using the recall command in situations where you know your dog is not going to respond (hands up who here has stood at the park calling 'come' ten times over... I know I have!) your dog learns they don't need to respond every time, and every time the dog makes the choice not to respond, the value of the recall command decreases. Calling your dog more than once also teaches them that they don't need to respond the first time especially if you call your dog ten times and then reward when they finally come to you - what have you just taught the dog? That it will be rewarded for coming the tenth time not the first.

I actually changed my recall command word from come to here when I realised the word come had been 'tainted' by myself and everyone else in my house - how many times had we called the dogs and not rewarded with any thing high value; let them ignore the command; called the word out ten times with no response etc. I NEVER use 'here' unless I am guaranteeing my dog I have something awesome in my hand and they will get it the instant they come back to me (unless of course in an emergency). This may be food, it may be my dog's favourite toy, etc. This is really important in the proofing process because you want to condition the recall to the point where the habit of responding to the recall becomes so ingrained, the dog does not even stop to think about it, they just comply.

It can also be helpful to use a word for your recall command you don't use often with your dogs. Just make sure you'd be happy to call it out in a busy park

The Really Reliable Recall DVD is a great place to start for anyone who is keen to improve their dog's recall.

[SarahNukka&Shadow]

That is definitely one big benefit of a remote training collar, it is a more subtle cue than we are capable of giving through voice and it's less than a leash correction but can work over far distances which is when people run into trouble with proofing. As you know, it's not a case of "shocking" the dog for failing to respond to a command, but giving it a subtle (not painful) cue to get their attention. Anyone who has put a modern e-collar on themselves will know it's not even remotely painful, and very different to the 'shock' collars of old which were used to blast dogs off stock they were chasing.

That is getting a bit off topic though

A big part of recall training is conditioning the dog the recall command. When you start using the recall command in situations where you know your dog is not going to respond (hands up who here has stood at the park calling 'come' ten times over... I know I have!) your dog learns they don't need to respond every time, and every time the dog makes the choice not to respond, the value of the recall command decreases. Calling your dog more than once also teaches them that they don't need to respond the first time especially if you call your dog ten times and then reward when they finally come to you - what have you just taught the dog? That it will be rewarded for coming the tenth time not the first.

I actually changed my recall command word from come to here when I realised the word come had been 'tainted' by myself and everyone else in my house - how many times had we called the dogs and not rewarded with any thing high value; let them ignore the command; called the word out ten times with no response etc. I NEVER use 'here' unless I am guaranteeing my dog I have something awesome in my hand and they will get it the instant they come back to me (unless of course in an emergency). This may be food, it may be my dog's favourite toy, etc. This is really important in the proofing process because you want to condition the recall to the point where the habit of responding to the recall becomes so ingrained, the dog does not even stop to think about it, they just comply.

It can also be helpful to use a word for your recall command you don't use often with your dogs. Just make sure you'd be happy to call it out in a busy park

The Really Reliable Recall DVD is a great place to start for anyone who is keen to improve their dog's recall.

Bec, Im really interested to know more on how you trained emergency recall.. I also believe every dog should have this as a back up.

I trained emergency recall with my girl from day 1.. I whistled through my teeth a specific whistle and then rewarded and praised when she came ever time, did this over and over and over both in the house and out on a long lead in the park till I thought it was ingrained.. it worked every time till one day she got out of my mums garden through a hole in the fence behind the shed that we hadnt noticed, I whistled my arse off and she just totally ignored it. I was very lucky my sister can run like a cheater or I think I would have lost her that day.

So with that in mind what else could I possibley do?

[Macdog]

So not quite what I would consider a reputable nor ethical organisation, nor one that actually knows or understands what they are talking about when it comes to e-collars and how they are and should be used to the benefit of the animal... but that is getting off topic, let's get back to recall training

I guess if you can accept that SPCA's worldwide are disreputable, unethical and uninformed - to use your terminology - then you could accept just about anything. Personally, I don't buy it.